Red Fox Logo Design Plagiarism
You may be surprised to know that the logo design community is fairly rife with plagiarism (copying other people’s designs) and this week we have the logo design community up in arms over the apparent theft of Logomotives design for ‘Red Fox’, very closely replicated by respected designer Dache’s (David Pache) ‘Art Fox’ design.
The designs are near identical.
Slovenian Designer Blog bravely reports on the theft and doesn’t mince their words!
If you click on the ‘Artic Fox’ link on the Slovenian Designer blog you’ll be taken to a page where you can see lower down on the thread a discussion of the situation as it unfolds. Art Fox had apparently promised to remove their logo from their Art Fox website first thing this morning and yet at 1pm as I write, it’s still in force:
What I find interesting though is that David Pache of Dache Design choose to post the Art Fox logo on the very same Logopond website as the original Red Fox logo – making me wonder why if it was deliberate theft they wouldn’t be more careful to conceal it?
Perhaps it’s possible to subconciously copy a design without being aware that you are doing that?
Inspiration Good Or Inspiration Bad?
It’s often cited that it’s good practice for designer’s to visit inspirational logo websites such as Logopond, which describes itself as offering ‘Identity Inspiration’, but can it do more harm than good?
When designers find themselves copying other designers concepts and possibly not even aware that the concept had entered their subconscious from elsewhere other than their own pure creative imagination.
22 Responses to “Red Fox Logo Design Plagiarism”
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Hi Lauren, how’s it going?
Thanks for the support and blog post.
It’s all about awareness and as professional designers it’s not only our obligation to create unique brands for clients, but also our responsibility to make sure the logo really is unique.
Whether Dache was inspired by the logo or not is no longer the situation as both Dache and Boledia (owners I believe of ArtFox) were notified of the situation. Yet it’s not the end of the day is it?
Until it’s end of work day their time, heck even Tuesday morning (people are busy as you know) I believe no one should be held accountable, you know, not yet anyway.
If we wake up Tuesday morning and find it is still up on ArtFox then we talk…ok?
Id appreciate it, as a personal favor to me, if you would retract this post as pending, just un publish it till Tuesday morning as it’s only fair
sorry if i got your name wrong
It’s Amanda
I can understand your rationale in delaying this post, but Tuesday morning is only a few hours away, a lot of designers already know all about this now anyway, and the point still stands that although you’ve told them they have until Tuesday morning I’ve heard on the grapevine that they’ve known since the 15th January.
There really isn’t any excuse for not taking down that logo well before today even, it takes 30 seconds to whip that logo off that website (and really an apology should be forthcoming as well) and yet it hasn’t happened.
I don’t fancy the chances of seeing it come down tomorrow morning, because they already said it would be down first thing this morning and it wasn’t, and they’ve had over two weeks to remove it anyway and haven’t. If it was coming down, surely it would be down by now in light of the furor over it for the last two weeks.
Perhaps it is Bolidea that are resisting the removal and not Dache.
I have to wonder why Dache would do this anyway with such strong design skills, why put your reputation at risk like this? Which is why I’ve rather generously suggested that perhaps it’s not entirely deliberate. The lack of comment from Dache on the matter is rather damning though. Perhaps there’s a new designer on the payroll with less than desirable ethics.
Amanda
Hi Amanda, I’m Raphael from ArtFox, after discussing with both designers I decided to take down the logo and evaluate my options. I certainly do not want to offend anyone. You can read more on our decision on Bolidea’s blog: http://www.bolidea.com
Thank you
Hi Amanda,
I’m a little surprised that David hasn’t commented publicly, perhaps on LogoPond, in defence or whatever. Maybe that’s in the pipeline.
Cheers for the link.
It is very true that inspiration is often subconscious. But us modern day designers have a tremendous tool at our disposal to show us similar concepts at the push of a button: the computer and the world wide web. Especially since a lot of inspiration today comes from said computer and internet.
Before I design and after I’ve finished, I do searches using every descriptive word I can think of, to know what to avoid and then see if, sometime during my design time, something similar popped up. It has saved my butt a number of times. Dache has no excuse.
That is brilliant news Raphael, thank you for commenting here so that we all know the outcome of this situation.
I’m sure that Dache can produce something equally impressive for you without treading on any toes and I wish ArtFox the best of success
David, thanks for your comment, I very much agree. I’d be surprised he maintained a silence for the long term.
Trish, yes one can check through Google images etc prior to designing but I’m sure this isn’t anywhere near a foolproof method. I can’t guarantee that one day I may not accidentally create a replica design, I don’t think any designer can be sure of that, we are all at risk, but we must react appropriately if it does happen.
I think Mike (RedFox designer) will be over the moon and very relieved.
Amanda
Hey Amanda, I think you’ll enjoy this next link, oh boy are you gonna enjoy it LOL
http://milliondollardude.com/logopond-under-plagiarist-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-50
Hi,
I would like to inform you all that I will not be using either Dache’s nor Mike’s logo for the branding of ArtFox. Despite the time and effort that this change will require, It is very important for me to change the direction of the branding as I highly respect artistic integrity. I do not wish to promote something that could be perceived as plagiarism as I am and will always be against it.
I apologize for all the grief caused by this issue and I want to reaffirm that it was never in my intentions to do so.
Raphael Ettore for ArtFox
Good lord!
Hmmm maybe he purchased it off Bionic Systems in 2007 (ie outsourced) and then used it in 2008 ….ahem…. struggling at this point to give much more benefit of the doubt to Dache and pretty much starting to believe the very very worst.
Crikey what a scandal.
To clarify the latest news on Dache and the latest discovery:
Designed by Bionic -Systems.com in 2007: http://www.d10.net/multimedia.php
‘Designed’ by Dache in 2008: http://www.dreamten.com/
Exact same design.
I have no idea whether there is any collaboration or link between http://www.d10.net and http://www.dreamten.com that explains why they have exactly the same logo and why one was apparently designed in 2007 by Bionic Systems (D10) and then the second replica design then appears in Daches portfolio in 2008.
Maybe we will find out in due course.
Thanks again Raphael, very ethical of you to appreciate the importance of copyright, if we don’t respect copyright in all it’s forms, we would all be in trouble, not just designers.
Amanda
I struggle to see how you can claim to be a community and yet be so instantly ready to tear apart each other like wolves.
Raphael, I would suggest you reconsider thrashing all your print work and $ investment – take a little time off and let cooler heads (or assholes) prevail.
It is obvious that NEITHER RedFox nor Artfox can claim prior exclusivity because a directly analogous design already existed, as shown here
2008-09-20 08:53:32 love4rsale
http://forum.theovc.org/viewtopic.php?id=258
208-09-22 joseph09
Oct. 07 ’08 (10/07/2008) LOGOMOTIVE
“@ Logopond:….
Morgri said:
http://forum.theovc.org/viewtopic.php?id=258
To bad the whole concept is stolen. Maybe you should try figuring out your own ideas before you go stealing other peoples hard work.
679
Oct. 08 ’08
logomotive said:
^ Hey Pal, don’t go accusing me of stealing anything. WHY don’t you check out my portfolio and see for yourself that I don’t need to steal anyones ideas. As GOD as my witness I have never seen that logo or anything close to that. So I guess nothing new under the sun has been done huh. I know for myself the truth and sure others believe me.
”
I dont think it necessarily unique to draw fox out of triangles.. its the most primal building block of all (triangles can be squares,rectangles and circles) if you program video games, almost all dynamic objects are made from triangles!
so we move on…the color red.. umm…hello??? Though we type “the Quick Brown Fox Jumped Over the Lazy Dog” most foxes are reddish with a white tufted tail. … It is not indicative of GUILT for this Dash guy to keep out of the fray… it is WISDOM
you do yourselves a great disservice methinks
http://milliondollardude.com/logopond-under-plagiarist-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-60
turns out it’s a rip.
I had to dig around to understand that, to clarify things once more:
Logomotives posted their Red Fox design on Logopond on Oct 2008 – http://logopond.com/gallery/detail/41400
Yet an earlier image of a similar concept of the same name (Red Fox) exists in Sep 2008 – http://forum.theovc.org/viewtopic.php?id=258
Some comments from Dache can also be now viewed on the Logopond discussion of this matter.
Just because a design shows up in Sep, that isn’t any evidence that the OVC designer is the original designer. Mike may have only posted it in Oct, but that doesn’t mean that was it’s first public airing/not seen before.
Obviously we don’t know for sure, but what I find rather strange is the lack of profile information for every single person at the OVC forum, or even forum signatures to their websites. That is unusual, is that a real forum conversation or a mocked up one?
Amanda
“Just because a design shows up in Sep, that isn’t any evidence that the OVC designer is the original designer. Mike may have only posted it in Oct, but that doesn’t mean that was it’s first public airing/not seen before.”
c’mon now.
Really.
Basically you are saying the equivalent of.. “show me the facts I base my opinion on EVIDENCE, then when faced with contrary evidence…. you discount it!” Dont take the critique personally, it is a decidedly human trait. We only have to look at immediate history and at how the whole ‘evidence of weapons of mass destruction and justification for war” thing worked out to see what cherrypicking evidence gets us.
The facts are as they are seen, and are to be taken at face value.
There is existing PRIOR images that match the Redfox/Artfox logotype.
Mike (Logomotion) “is as clearly a thief” regarding this logo as Dasche is!
Of course, Mike swore to God that he hadnt seen the prior work before and was not influenced by it in his design, and of course , We Like Mike, so all is well.
Out come the anecdotes ….”oh yes, I’ve run into that many a time meself…”
Look, after all is said, done and thrashed out, it may well be that this Dasche guy is some lowlife scumbag
But ultimately, this issue isnt about Mike, Dasche, Redfox/Artfox it is about YOU what do YOU stand for?
Right now, we can certainly verify that Artfox has taken a hit – if they have made /ordered stationary, mouse pads, goodies for clients, T-Shirts, designed banner advertising at great cost only to have to throw it away?
You guys arent operating or thinking as business people look at this:
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/13205.html The Watchmen Movie ..
http://comicsworthreading.com/2009/01/16/watchmen-movie-dispute-settled-fox-gets-payoff/ Dispute settled,
See, there was a dispute over the movie. Fox just quietly notified Warner and worked on their legal options.
Now, even if you ARE a lawyer in your own right, filing a lawsuit in defense of your rights is expensive – still, Lawyers will take your case on commission on occasion -IF YOUR CASE IS IRONCLAD.
It’s clear to me at least, that Mike did not have prior exclusivity to this “Triangle fox idea” and thus, his claims have no merit.
This name calling, slander, defamation, extortion and threats is unsightly, unprofessional and distasteful. That business people could collapse down to this rabble rousing behavior is just plain shocking.
It is quite likely that if were the project manager of my companies internet division, about to tender out a 400k public website, intranet and company rebranding campaign, that I may want to avoid any of the lunatic fringe who got stirred up by this and not have them work on any projects the company is involved in?
You think I wouldnt do even some limited due diligence to see who the hell we are working with?
Companies dont want plagiarists, but THEY DONT WANT INTERNET NUT-JOBS EITHER!!
If y’all can go off half cocked and abusive like this, threatening a yet to be launched company – OVER AN ISSUE NOT YET RIPE NOR PROVEN – should anyone do financial dealings with you where their company reputation would be at stake?
what if we had an honest disagreement over some deliverable – we hold that our contract allows for 5 design revisions (we dont count the first submission as a revision- but you do) are we to expect an internet grassroots slander campaign????
jeezus christ people
we gotta be BETTER THAN THIS …or else
…..
MY BLOG WORDING:
“and this week we have the logo design community up in arms over the apparent theft of Logomotives design for ‘Red Fox’, very closely replicated by respected designer Dache’s (David Pache) ‘Art Fox’ design.”
Now with relation to my own personal conduct in things I have learned of in recent days and reported upon, you will note that I said ‘apparent theft’ in my blog, I’ve not once claimed to know for sure if Dache has stolen the design or not because of course I can’t possibly know.
I’ll admit based on circumstances thus far it’s looked pretty damning though and have said as much also in some of my comments. You will not find one of my own personal comments claiming that Dache has definitely stolen Mike of Logomotives design, I’ve merely reported on the events and links to the disputes in actually quite a neutral fashion.
You will also note I’ve been very respectful in my comments and in no way abusive to Dache, indeed I’ve implied on a number of occasions now that this could all very well be accidental duplication. I’m always happy to give the benefit of the doubt.
My main criticism has been Daches failure at one point to respond to allegations and commented that it is in fact this that is damaging his reputation (because it makes him ‘seem’ guilty even if that may not be true), as of course all ‘theft’ claims are going to be alleged only until proven.
Which is why I’ve afforded Mike the same benefit of the doubt, I’m not calling anyone a thief for sure with only a few images as evidence. Of course these constitute little in the way of real evidence.
My attempts to give Mike benefit of the doubt (which is the same benefit of doubt I gave Dache) is nothing to do with me being ‘friends’ with anyone.
It might interest you to know that I’m not a member of Logopond as far as I’m aware unless I signed up years ago and forgot about it, have never used the website, and have never spoken to Dache or Mike before in my life and never heard of their businesses before either. They are completely unknown to be until I heard of these events and read all the comments.
My posting of this blog is nothing to do with sticking up for friends, I don’t know Dache, I don’t know Mike, and I don’t know Slovenian Designer, you may note he didn’t even know my name either until I told him. This blog is simply a report on a potential case of design plagiarism, which interests me and no doubt my readers also.
I think anyone would be hard pushed to describe my comments and indeed my initial blog, which merely reports on events, as ‘Internet nut job’ behavior.
So please don’t include me in the ‘you all’ statements about abusive comments and threats as on ‘this blog’ there is no such activity, probably the reason why Bolidea felt it safe to comment here.
I also don’t personally feel you have put yourself in the best position for critising those that have been abusive to Dache.
I had to remove some comments you posted earlier due to their abusive/rude nature and even what I’ve left has an abusive tone and wording still….. so whilst you seek to deride those ‘Internet nut jobs’ who are concerned about a potential plagiarism in a community they trust in, look to your own behavior and comments also and think about how that looks to potential clients.
You are swearing, and ranting and shouting in capitals for goodness sake, what makes you think that you ‘don’t’ look like an Internet nut job? People in glass houses and all that.
Oh yes, an interesting thing about blogs… whenever someone has strong opinions they are expressing, it’s quite common for them to for some reason omit a website link, that might lead readers to uncover their identity.
Why the hiding Mark?
it’s a common debating technique that, when presented with a flaw in their argument, to attack something else, unrelated or the person personally ( ad hominem attacks).
My point still is as valid as it stands.
It hasnt been refuted in any way.
The circumstances of the previous links – that you yourself saw for yourself, do show that there is prior art existing that matches BOTH efforts – inadvertently perhaps, but matching all the same, which makes the current tempest moot.
if you didnt fan the flames with inflammatory “burn the thief” rhetoric, well good for you! If I implied that you were one of the crazed villagers with pitchforks (and you have no pitchfork) then I am wrong then!
I am not a designer, although I know what I like
I have no website to offer you and I have no SEO axe to grind to invite you or Google anywhere.
My position is the same as before, this stupid tempest does the design world no good.
I would not be so presumptious to suggest you make a statement on it, I suspect you already have or at least share my opinion on this, I doubt we disagree that much.
Anyway, the story is ended, Artfox made LogoMotive an offer for the rights to his version which he declined saying that if he sold them the rights to HIS version, they couldn’t use the other version (yeah, I said WTF too) So Artfox ends up reprinting whatever they printed and developing a new logo/branding, possibly by the same guy (Dasche)
A totally silly and wasted tale.
Whilst I agree that the extreme end of the ‘pitchfork’ behavior isn’t ideal, I can understand that people can become angered by the thought of a potential plagiarism, especially if the victim is someone they are good friends with and the accused does nothing to allay their suspicions.
You feel it does the design world no good, but to be honest I think there would be a huge amount more plagiarism going around if the design world didn’t going into a huge tizzy at any whiff of it. This sort of thing aids as a ‘cautionary’ tale for those who may be tempted.
What would deter would be design thieves if they didn’t think there reputations might be at stake if they steal designs? I feel this behavior actually serves to offer significant protection for designers, it’s why they band together and do it.
With regards to his refusal to be bought off it seems that Mike is quite proud and precious about his Artfox design (he did say it was his favourite) and doesn’t want to be paid of so it can be buried and the other design used instead, each to their own I guess. Personally I’d have sold it for a very good price, but then I am a design ho
lol
It’s been a good conversation with you, thank you for adding an interesting debate to this blog
Amanda
Lol I dont consider you a “design Ho” by any means!
Designs are to be sold, hopefully used, but sold nonetheless.
Isn’t that why we labor and give birth to our creations so that we can set them free?
Sure there (may) be a punitive effect and fear of being publicly shamed/called out – but what of the risk of defaming one person’s character over another’s?
Obviously, Mike/Logomotive is a much more handsome and likeable character than this ‘horrible fellow Dasche’ but that doesnt make his claims any more valid – when viewed in calm dispassionate terms does it?
Dasch’s logo –>looks like a rip from Mike/Logomotive–>Which in turn looks stolen from –>Joseph09
I really think you should put all three up there – As it would be a good cautionary tale.
What it meant for me, as a developer and having oversight on many 200k plus IT projects, I would NEVER hire Mike/LogoMotive for ANYTHING. I know now, having seen his portfolio 1st hand, that it is pretty darn good. I know also, looking at his site, that his rates are reasonable. but I also know, based on the traffic of this incident, that Mike is passionate (both in a good AND bad way), immature (in a bad way) and has a lot of “internet nut job friends” ready to defame and slander at the slightest whiff of impropriety or sleighted treatment.
Disputes happen all the time – this incident is so incredible because it is exactly the kind of ‘grey’ ‘not-clear-cut’ situations that demand caution. We already saw that there were few claims to exclusivity, and yet, despite all they both knew, Mike and his friend perpetrated this internet slandering/shaming/defamation debacle – AND PERSISTED EVEN WHEN ARTFOX TRIED TO SETTLE, FAIRLY.
Since disputes happen all the time, whats to say that if I hired Mike and he was in disagreement over something, he and his nut-job friends wouldn’t try to damage me like they damaged Artfox?
Instead of entering on these futile internet vendettas, they should cooperatively pay for an attorney to handle their disputes, or, simply, GROW UP.
The whole thing is silly/sad in so many ways –
I would love if you actually took this story a bit further, maybe interviewing Artfox, and see what their take is, from the other side?
Lol
I agree that designs are meant to be sold, but you wouldn’t think it from the behavior of many designers who seem quite a bit more concerned about design integrity/art rather than sales.
An artist is one thing, a commercial designer is another I think.
“Obviously, Mike/Logomotive is a much more handsome and likeable character than this ‘horrible fellow Dasche’ but that doesnt make his claims any more valid – when viewed in calm dispassionate terms does it?”
Is he? Have you seen him, lol! ??
I’d suggest that although Mikes claims aren’t any more valid, you don’t hear Joseph09 on the first forum coming forward to complain of theft so that does seem to imply that the design is indeed Mikes, otherwise wouldn’t the other ‘first’ (Joseph09) designer complain?
The whole incidence regardless of what the real story is, is a very good cautionary tale, which is why I’m pleased to report on it. It just shows why it’s so important to try your best not to steal other people’s design work.
I can see what you are saying that he should be more mature and hire an attorney instead of entering into Internet defamation, but not everyone can afford an attorney, and if he is indeed the original designer, that then leaves him little option but to use other means to force Dache and Artfoxs hand in removing the design.
Don’t forget he did give them at least two weeks before it all got ugly, which is plenty of time. Personally I would have given them about a three days.
I don’t think this will do much damage to Mikes name personally. Also he may be like myself and gets little trade from other designers/developers. Nearly all of my project work comes direct from the business owner and thus if this is the case for Mike, most ‘ordinary non designer folk’ wouldn’t even know all about this spectacle to decide they don’t want to hire him because of it.
Interviewing Artfox? Lol, hmmm, methinks they’d rather this all just went away now.
I think Logo design is an important area of graphic design, and one of the most difficult to perfect. The logo,is the image embodying an organization. Because logos are meant to represent companies’ brands or corporate identities and foster their immediate customer recognition. The term Logo Design refers to a number of artistic and professional disciplines, which focus on visual communication and presentation.